I was also in the Persian Gulf, during Desert Storm, with 7th Corps. My medical records are also missing. I submitted a Request and then FOIA to the VA, and the response was that they would review it n 2019, I then submitted an Email to the VA subcommittee, and I received a CD of my records. All the records from Desert Storm were not included, I did have copies that I had made and kept for myself. Such as my shot record with the Vaccine "A" noted by the medic, with the commanding medical officers name.. I was the only one who asked for a copy in my detachment. He made me a copy at the Evac station where we got the vaccines. But it was not in the VA CD. I am currently researching Desert Storm, and you may be interested in the FOIA Online records concerning NN3-518-93-2, and the Mocking Bird/ Opus ,ACCIPITER Missions in the FOIA ONLINE releases. They say that the Desert Storm medical records were destroyed as to save room in the returning equipment cargo conexes. Members of my detachment, who have not passed away, also said replies for their records stated "no records found". Our Battalion had 2 fatalities, it also experienced 3 explosions and a chemical alert, at Log Base echo, about 2-18-91, which were never listed on the DOD Information Paper. I have FOIA'd the R 518 J-3 Joint Operation Directive Command Reports A1 23, Excutive Summaries, Significant Event Log, EAP manual, and Warbook. I have also FOIA'd the ACCIPITER (bottom of list) below Mocking Bird, Suspected BU 82 missions, Motion Picture, The records were found to be contaminated wih phosgene at FT Leavenworth, they did mass spectrometry tsting , which I FOIA'd the scientific reports. Still waiting for
agency releases and NARA to post in the Public Catalog. The 88, USS Stark attack is listed from the May VFW Mag article.
RG 518, Command Report Listings, Now listed in the Catalog, No actual records released by NARA in Catalog
Motion Picture, Bombing films in middle , nuclear pit inspection film after bombing in mid, RG 518Mocking Bird, Accipiter at end
I suggest you go to FOIA online. Search NARA only, just type in my last name and ACCIPITER. Then review the Memos pertaining to missing documents. I currently have researched that CENTCOM states 88 SCUD Missiles were fired. Iraq admits to 93, and US Space command detected 95. 2 missiles landed 10 miles south of Hafir Al Batin on 2-15-91, which were not noted, but were confirmed with a logged conference call. My unit experienced 3. So that's 93.
The RG 518 records could not be searched in the Catalog, I had to figure out the Alpha Numeric Sequence as to FOIA the RG, A1 23 Command Report. It's Listed in the NARA Catalog now. Just advance search, type in RG 518,
A1 23 or warbook as a tag. I am requesting that NARA begin to place Desert Storm TEXTUAL RECORDS in electronic format in the Public Online Catalog. There are NO textual records available in the NARA Catalog, Nor are there any Moving Images from the motion pictures on the NARA Youtube Account.
What was the date of the official DOD Admission of the Khamisiyah sarin plume release? Also, the NBC Log, was missing information from 13 Feb 91, to 20 Feb 91. And the BDA (Battle Damage Assessments of Iraq's nuclear, bio and chem research facilities has not been made public? But the films are all on the Classified Motion Picture FOIA release of 2013 to the Black Vault. The VA has chosen to continue the Gulf War Registry Exams for Persian Gulf Veterans, it has now been extended to 2021. There have been veterans from Desert Storm with chronic level titers of Q-Fever.
There have also been studies since the Tokyo Subway Sarin release, concerning the effects of low dose Sarin and Cyclosarin. There is also a list of US Army units within the reconstructed path of the March 91, Sarin Plume. The fallout, partial incineration and effects of bombing the nuclear, bio and chem facilities has not been released. The Mocking Bird dates correspond to the approximate date I observed a BLU 82 mission, in the 7th corps sector, Northwest of Hafar Al Batin. Now that the 25 year time frame has been reached, maybe they will do some Mandatory Declassification Reviews? They did about 7"s of records on a MDR of the 101st in 2016.
I submitted an SF 180, and listed the Medical Evac Unit, I also listed the Hospital at Ft Stewart, but the VA never replied back. After months later I submitted a FOIA to the VA FOIA Center, I received a reply to my E-Benefit account that they would respond around 2019, (more than 3 years later), after waiting a while, I then emailed the VA Senate Subcommittee. After a couple months I received the CD, but nothing from Desert Storm. Desert Storm veterans are encouraged by the VA to sign up for the Burn Pit Registry, but the registry does not acknowledge Desert Storm veterans, I notified the VA subcommittee of the problem. They now have an APP, and it states service from 90-91 may not register, and they are trying to fix the problem. The E-Benefits also has some military records, but they did not all show. Request a copy of your records from St Louis, but it will most likely have administrative records and awards, rather than medical. Check and see if your unit was awarded any Unit or Presidential Citations, If there is something missing from your DD214, such as awards, then call the Army Human Resources Command. If anyone was evacuated to Germany or the States, there is a Med Command Roster, with the diagnosis, rank, unit and home of record. They redact the name.
Maybe the medical records will show up one day.....but they also did this during the beginning of the 2nd Gulf War.
Now with cell phone cameras, it would be best to snap a video of the sick call treatment or record, as proof and capture the metadata.
It looks like they're denying my GWI claims because (they claim) I never was treated for or reported any symptoms which is false, like I said I remember going on sick call at least twice over there.
I , am hopefully being respectful and honest. I am not a subject matter expert concerning military conflicts or the 1st Persian Gulf War, since I was also a soldier following orders. Many decisions are made
that are not understood. The DOD admission of the Khamisiyah complex demolition occurred after the Army Declassification Project, Senate hearing, and ultimately in 1996 after a soldier displayed an actual film of the demolition and weapons that were destroyed. Please research the 1st Gulf War Senate Hearings that are on YouTube.
Please research the VA research and Data obtained by the Service organizations. The Data is available from every State and VA region concerning the denial of Gulf War Claims. As I recall it was Appx 80%. There are estimates that up to 40% of the soldiers were exposed and effected. There were also other factors within the battlefield, and the VA still considers various diseases from the Persian Gulf and Afghanistan Region. It is unfortunate, but some individuals have exposures and different degrees of health impairment. This is also the case concerning Agent Orange exposure during Vietnam. Some service members may have various degrees of short range or long range impairments. This is also the case for Atomic Veterans and those involved in Project SHAD.
The Gulf War exposures are reviewed as Undiagnosed Illness or Chronic Multi Symptom Illnesses. You can submit diagnosis from your physician. You can also submit buddy statements. If you have the initial DOD letter sent to some soldiers, you may submit it. Also, obtain a No Cost Gulf War Exam, and request labs, including coxiella, Q-Fever, and possible EMG's, if weakness and neuropathy. Testing related to the Gulf War Exam should be No Cost, and they should not bill you. They may attempt to bill your insurance, but they should not.
Many of the effects of low dose organophosphate and nerve agent exposure can result in various health problems, such as neuropathy, fibromyalgia, and cognitive changes. In some cases a Functional MRI may display deviations.
The VA stated to avoid insecticide exposure, alcohol and toxins, since these can further stress and damage the nervous system. Please research the current data. The VA just had a meeting this month in the Federal Register.
I submitted a letter to the committee chief.
As you are aware, they are focusing on the 2nd Gulf War service members. The timeframe for Desert Storm has reached the 25 year period as to declassify the remaining events. I consider myself lucky, since there are soldiers, and members of my unit who have passed away. There are forces beyond which we cannot control.
You can request a Reconsideration, ask a Service Rep. If you appeal, it could take Years...there are still appeals from Vietnam. They have just acknowledged the Water Contamination of the Marine Base, and also approved the Blue Water Navy during Vietnam for Agent Orange. A reconsideration can be requested by submitting the form to a Service Rep. Then file an Appeal, if you desire. I hope I provided some answers in a considerate manner. I think, the 1st Gulf War, was conducted in a manner to prevent potential Counter Attacks by the nations involved. One day all the information will be released.
I've also heard from Veteran Group Service Reps, that most of the Desert Storm claims are denied, and this has been studied. It seems that the VA looks for follow up and complaints immediately after serving in the theater. They do not consider that disease conditions may manifest years later. I know they did a pre and post deployment physical, and they also did a questionnaire toward possible exposure to chemical weapons, they also noted malaria tablets. These records were not computerized. And this was a complaint of many veterans during the time period. There is always a Catch 22.
If you filed your own claim, it may be beneficial to talk to a Service Organization Rep, such as the VFW, American Legion or AMVETS.
There is also a list of Army Units that were within the Khamisiyah Plume. Many small units and individual attachments may not be listed.
You can also have a more thorough exam by requesting a Gulf War Registry Exam, which may be of assistance for a later Appeal. From what I have been told, you can request more than 1 Registry Exam through the VA Environmental Coordinator. It was extended last year to 2021. Hopefully they continue the exams for the 2d Gulf War Veterans?
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Dear Mr. Lober,
Thank you for posting your inquiry to History Hub. You may wish to follow your request up with the National Personnel Record Center at 314-801-0800. Be sure to have your search request number handy when you call so they can access your case as quickly as possible. You may also want to reach out to the VA records management center. You may send them an inquiry at P.O. Box 5020, St. Louis , MO 63115 or call either 888-533-4558 or 888-533-4558 or Fax 314-679-3615 or visit them in person at 4300 Goodfellow Boulevard., Building #104, St. Louis, MO 63120.
Good luck in your search!
Thanks, I just happened to fax a FOIA to VA St Louis last night. I have submitted several document requests over the years from several agencies and at least two with the NPRC. In fact the most recent (08/02/2017) one from the NPRC say's "the specific separation document you requested WAS NOT located". (see attachment)
The problem with that (attached) above letter is I already have a 04/06/2017 letter from The Dept of the Army - Army Human Resources Command 1600 Spearhead Division Ave Dept 420 Fort Knox, KY 40122 that say's "Medical records are not maintained by this command" and then it refers me to VA - St Louis. At the time I assumed VA already had all my Active Duty Medical Records (from past claims) so why would I request documents VA already has for a VA Claim? I will be both shocked and not surprised if it turns out VA St Louis has my missing medical documents, but from what I've been reading all over the internet I have a feeling my missing Desert Shield/Storm era medical documents have been destroyed.
Dear Sir ,
There was testimony by service members that orders were given, and some senior officers and NCO's came forward with what they witnessed. The Marine commandant basically implied chemical weapons were on the battlefield. There were also verified drone reports. The Fox crews obtained mass spectrometry samples, and also bio samples which were forwarded. There were special teams that transferred the samples. There was an investigation, and the NBC logs were missing and some logs were found in the possession of an officers home. The Desert Storm records are restricted. There should be documents toward air and soil testing. As you may be aware, a special weapon may have been utilized on the last day of the war. After the war, NARA was very concerned with obtaining the records. The NARA memos state they were in disarray. I also gauge the undertones of the communications, that they were trying to quickly gain access and categorize them. NARA was initially informed by the DOD that, there was no contamination or fumigation. As you may know from chemistry, each compound has a molecular weight. A pesticide has a different mass, than a nerve agent. I have FOIA'd very important documents and motion pictures, that are not in the public catalog. These records could be beneficial for the current Desert Storm veterans. Imagine if the 1st World War had no mention of chemical weapons? Imagine if WW2 had no mention of the 2 atomic bombs? Today is the date of the Nagasaki weapon. A very sophisticated campaign may have occurred, which altered the public perception and VA medical opinions. Many veterans are aware, and others have chosen to remain silent for various reasons. As you may
see, the use of special weapons has been in the news. The use of these weapons cannot be taken lightly, because they have long lasting health implications. They contaminate the surface water and soil of the planet and alter DNA .
Please review the FOIA ONline releases. The truth is vital to our future. The commanding general did Not feel, a ground invasion was needed. He was pressured to move before a political negotiation could be made. He wanted a push, as to minimize a chemical corridor. He most likely prevented a counter attack by another nation and air assets and missiles that wear not in Iraq. Please review the air force films. This is just my opinion. But its been over 25 years.
They say the Truth is out there, but it may be ugly. It may be time for it to be released?
You do not need to prove you went on sick call wile in the theater. I know veterans who have their original sick call, and deployment physicals and were denied. They will base it on something else. Just being in theater, is a basis.
If you have an actual "diagnosis" of Fibromyalgia, or Chronic Fatigue from your personal physician, then it should suffice. I have also heard of veterans with "Undiagnosed" problems from neurologists such as dizziness and fatigue, then receive a diagnosis from a VA PA of benign vertigo. Then the condition is diagnosed and no longer eligible. It's a catch 22, as to make the condition invalid under the guidelines. As you may remember, back in 1992, veterans who went to the VA were given psychological diagnosis or accused of malingering. Many veterans involved in the Khamisiyah event were accused of malingering and making false accusations. Guess where I worked? Many veterans had problems and were discharged. The senate hearings discussed this. The DOD stated there were NO chemical exposures during Desert Storm, until 1996 when an Army soldier came forward with the films. The DOD and CIA then did modeling as to evaluate the extent of the plume, which extended for hundreds of miles. None of the Iraq SCUDs had chemical weapons, even though a later inspection of the armed soviet models displayed a number of missing missiles. There was also a 4.0 earthquake near Basra on the last hour of the war. The VA had a study for Gulf War veterans as to measure mitochondrial DNA alterations. They have also found abnormalities in Functional Brain MRI's of Desert Storm veterans.
They may always find another rationale as to deny the claim. Desert Storm veterans have higher rates of Brain Cancer
and ALS. The VA does not recognize the Brain CA, or Multiple Sclerosis for Desert Storm service. They do recognize ALS. Also research the Legal standing, definition and Prier Case Law and Appeals. A Reconsideration has to present new evidence, such as an external diagnosis, lab or test. There are statistics toward how many veterans will appeal the denial. There are appeals that have been in limbo for over 10 years. Many younger people, and even VA staff, are not aware that there was a 1st Gulf War, or even Khamisiyah?
War is a business, and has little regard for the consequences. Someone once said "What if they had a war, and nobody came?" Please research further and let me know if you find anything. Hopefully they do not redact the Command reports and executive summaries.
During that time frame there are Memos from NARA staff who were concerned that records may have been improperly destroyed or not turned in. As I remember, some military members came forward and stated orders were given not to bring the sick call and logs back. Some of the medical commands refused to comply and brought the records back. It was also reported that teams came to the units and obtained records. Much of this was discussed in senate hearings and this is why the Gulf war registry exams and chronic multi symptom conditions were developed. Similar to Agent Orange conditions. As you may b aware, it took over 20 years to obtain the Agent Orange studies. There were government studies which were later obtained which outlined the side effects. The relationship of Dioxin and Defoliants in the drinking water of the soldiers, caused various health impairments. Veterans of Vietnam, do not have to prove the had problems or were on sick call while in Vietnam, but if they were in country and developed chloracne or various cancers, then they receive consideration. Vietnam Naval ships in the open blue water were not eligible. The SHAD Project was a naval study for biological and chemical attacks on ships. They were sprayed with various agents. It took over 20 years for the information to be released. Their medical records were considered classified. There was also an experiment using Mustard on an Island, whereby army veterans were denied VA care for years until the information was released. I suspect there is a motion picture of this spraying in the Motion Picture Titles, FOIA release.
There is also more Motion Pictures of Desert Storm, which are Ground Based, and consisting of 9 cassettes. The evidence would historically clarify the events of Desert Storm. Many veterans believe that full disclosure should take place. But it may be 75 years from now. And by then, there may be wars of a much more catastrophic nature.
for your signature is a standard Form 258 for 165 cubic
by the u.s. Central Command (CENTCOM)
Office, have been arranged
described by a NARA archivist on detail to CENTCOM and will
after CENTCOM has copied them on to optical
If you concur in this transfer, please sign the enclosed
return it to me .
v ery much look forward to receiving these records, which will
valuabl e addition to our hol dings. We are, accordingly,
to Air Force and CENTCOM for agreeing to their early
We are, however, concerned that other CENTCOM records
h ave been destroyed without authorization or otherwise
. No CENTCOM records pre-dating Desert Shield/Desert Storm
to be extant. None have been retired to our FRCs nor have
· been located, to date, at MacDill AFB.
collection of materials pertaining to escort operations
the Persian Gulf, 1987-1990 (Operation Earnest Will), i s
considerably smaller than what we had initia lly been led to
. The total volume of all the records that have been
on Desert Shield/Desert Storm is relatively low and very
are security classified above SECRET .
'were informally told that General Schwartzkopf has
and possibly other official recorqs.
would very much appreciate your looking into the matters
above and letting us know what you learn . To better
the preservation of records of CENTCOM and other unified
will, during FY 94, work with the Office of the
and the services to develop a generic schedule for
As an interim measure to avert the disposal
historically valuable records, we suggest that you ask CENTCOM
applicable to the highest echelon of command
HQ USAF andjor MACOMS) when they apply the disposition
structions contained in AFR 4- 20.
Here's my JUN 2016 Claim and denials, this is the one I filled out in front of a VA Counselor with him telling me exactly what to write. This is the Counselor who (basically) said "If you set foot over there and you have digestive issues, acid reflux, diarrhea it's a slam dunk swish to be approved".
Here is my APR 2017 Claim and (without a C&P Exam) denials, this is the one that I went to the VFW for help at the urging of a buddy of mine who by the way is GWI Service Connected and he was never deployed to the Gulf but he did get the immunizations which is another thing I got but have no record of. Anyway, I let the VFW talk me into filing a new claim because they said an appeal takes longer and would probably just be denied anyway.
Many veterans of Desert Storm have these symptoms, and they seem to correlate with the Tokyo Subway Nerve Agent
Attack studies. More than 80 % are denied, I could not find the study I reviewed, which listed the VA denial rate by state and city. There are some states and regions that are more favorable. The VFW has testified to this denial rate in congress. Many veterans have had EMG's, MRI's, EGD's, Colonoscopies, and seen private neurologists, gastroenterologists and otolaryngology specialists at their own cost. In many cases the MRI will be normal. In some cases the EMG's may be normal, because they gauge motor reflexes, rather than sensory. The VA stated in a Senate Hearing that it had a computer list of every Desert Storm Veteran, Appxx 670K, but they cannot add these numbers to the Burn Pit list for some reason, even though they encourage Desert Storm Veterans to register? As you see it is a Catch 22. I am a Registered Nurse and not a physician, and have reviewed the studies. It seems that exposure to low dose Sarin can have lasting effects. There are also studies on cognitive impairments over time.
There are also reports that there are Medical Records at St Louis, and you must request them by the Evacuation Hospital or Medical Command seen in the theater.
The VA waited to renew the Gulf War Registry, and the VFW promoted legislative continuations. The service reps are
aware of the Desert Storm catch 22's, but there is only so much they can do against the powers that exist. Please review Project SHAD, involving 5K Navy veterans exposed to Sarin, Bio and Decontamination Solutions in 1965. There is a YouTube Video. Imagine 40% of 670K?
The Desert Storm records are still restricted. They are creating a War Memorial in DC. The 1st Gulf War records should be declassified. Many of the 1st Gulf War veterans are in their 40's and 50's. And the WW2 and Korean War vets are almost gone, many of who were our parents and relatives.
A Service Rep will explain the backlog of VA claims and Appeals. The Reps focus on the claims they can win.
And the VA focuses on it's statistics. It's common now to display MOAB bombing in Afghanistan, but not the BLU 82 missions from Desert Storm? As long as all the records remain Restricted and forgotten, then the next generation can minimize the events.
It seems that you have been properly advised by the service reps. This is a common issue. As you may be aware, there were NO chemical weapons used offensively by Iraq? The DOD admission to Khamisiyah was 1996. It was denied for 5 years. Project SHAD was denied for over 25.
I thank you for your service. Take Care......
There have also been instances of chronic infection with coxiella burnetii, which is a bacteria found in sheep, goats and camels. It is known as Q-Fever, it can become chronic and is tested through IgG antibody blood titers, and is a common form of zoonosis in the middle east. Another chronic infection, involves brucella. In a chronic form, these bacteria can lead to multiple symptoms, such as general malaise, memory loss and in 1% there are neurological manifestations. The VA Gulf War examiner can order these tests, they will most likely be negative, but some veterans have been found to have a burnetii titer greater than 1:800 . Usually the treatment is Antibiotics, Doxy, Rifampin for about 2 years. The tests should be at no cost through the Gulf War Registry exam. They are not expensive through Lab Corp, about $130, but the VA may code them differently. Q fever, is common in the animal carcasses and placentas. It is also formulated as a bio weapon, since it is easily airborne and highly contagious. Please research these risk factors.
There are also instances of Lyme disease with neuro, joint and memory problems.
There is really nothing that can be done for Sarin exposure, except avoid insecticides and toxins.
Please follow up with your physician or VA clinician for further information and care.
This National Archives listing did Not exist a year ago. It is hopefully undergoing an MDR with the ...agencies involved in declassifying the records. It took me a year to locate this, after the Army, CENTCOM and Pentagon did not know where the Desert Storm records were. Eventually the Pentagon FOIA Office, said they were sent to NARA in 1998. They had to find an older employee who did not retire yet. It's been about 6 months. The records were reviewed during the Army Declassification Project, but never released. As you see, the disinformation campaign and deception has been ongoing. The FOIA Act of 1974, is in its infancy. The general Public is not aware of their rights, it can even be challenged in federal court. And a claim does Not need an attorney. Many prisoners flood the courts with challenges, just to seek a judicial review that is dismissed. But, the policies usually change, because of the exposure. The general public is not aware of the power of the sunshine laws.
I never did find my Persian Gulf related medical records. However, I went on eBenefits yesterday and it looks like I've been awarded 40% for: ---Chronic Fatigue Syndrome with Polyarthralgia and Muscle strain (claimed as stiffness unexplained pain and stiffness, undiagnosed illness) --- Service Connected --- Environmental Hazard in Gulf War. Everything else was denied saying "Not Service Connected" with the exception of one item (chronic diarrhea claimed as digestive condition) that was deferred. But here's the kicker, the 40% they awarded me had no impact on my overall rating and that's because they downgraded two of my previous awards by 20%. So even though I'm being awarded 40% in reality it's only 20%. What frustrates the crap out of me is they will deny things that (according to VA counselors) have the best evidence. I injured both my shoulders while on active duty, I went on sick call for those injuries and those visits are in my medical records. Over time my shoulders have gotten worse, I think it's reasonable and as likely as not that my shoulder problems began while on active duty. But they denied my shoulder claims as "Not Service Connected". Similarly, they denied my Burn Pit related claims. So I was at a total of 130 points with a 90% Rating, now I'm at 150 points and still with a 90% Rating.
Be thankful, many veterans have passed away with no recognition. I have attempted to have some of the Record Group 518 records declassified . It's going on a year, for a 100 hour ground war that had no special weapons utilized.
They're working on a Desert Storm Memorial in DC, and they have approved the waiver for the 2nd Gulf War Memorial.
Basically over 25 years of war in the region. The RG 518, also has the Operation Earnest Will and USS Stark Investigation. The May 2017, VFW magazine article entitled "Questions About the USS Stark Attack Still Unanswered",
could possibly be answered by the declassification of the Stark CENTCOM records that are with the Desert Storm records. Another question consists of, what was the metallurgy of the missile penetrator? As each generation fades away, the questions go unanswered. But at least we've had reasonable gasoline prices and made it to 2018. And maybe they're running out of regions to wage these conflicts? But most likely not.
Wont believe this, Found it today. I found my Desert Storm Medical discharge physical, questionnaire and the SF600 Note for an injury treated at an Evacuation Hospital in my Electronic Military Record at Army Human Resources Command. It even had the reverse page, listing directions for filling out the SF600 Note. You can use your VA e-Benefits password to access the Human Resources Command, then open up your records. It was listed in a list of documents. It also has a breakdown of retirement points. Try using your e-Benefits user ID and Password to check your electronic record at the Human Resource site.
I'm pretty sure I already tried that.
It's not the records retrieved in e-Benefits. You actually go to the page of agencies whereby you can use your level 2, ID, then click Army Human Resources and Log in. It's a blue text screen. It had the deployment medical records.
I think there were holes punched at the top of the records, so they were in a binder at one time. These records were not the same as those from the e-Benefits request. It also had correspondence courses taken, and service schools, and reenlistment physicals. Use the DS Log IN. Then Right side Reserve/Retire/Veteran Records.
I'm there now and I've been here before, very little medical info and nothing useful.
Maybe the records were not destroyed. This memo (Bottom Portion) states that the records were Scanned before shipping them to NARA. The Excalibur Archivist Project. Could it be a super computer somewhere near centcom in florida? Hard to imagine that there was not room in the conex for medical records? Is there a computer named Excalibur? The project was completed April 1994. The DOD Khamisiyah admission was around 1995. Did NARA actually receive all the records?
These records at the AHRC site are listed as SF600 Records, the questionnaire was there. But missing my 1994
orders and eval for Annual Training. Another possibility, is that the records remained in country, and were electronically scanned back to the US using the technology at that time. Back then, anything was possible, and
asking questions was not an option. This answer sums it up....