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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
mdwyre
Apr 3, 2017 9:38 AM
1 person found this helpfulUnfortunately, military records in our custody do not include records of individual pieces of equipment. Under normal War Department and Department of the Army records management procedures, such documentation would be considered temporary and would be destroyed after its administrative use.
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
What about it's origin of manufacturer?
JACK BETZ
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
mdwyre
Apr 3, 2017 11:59 AM
We may have general records about that type of gun ((e.g. technical manuals), but we would not have any records related to the manufacture of a specific gun. Unless it is part of the description, you may have to do some background research to determine the type of gun.
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
The Army does not "Abandon Property" , sometimes they forget about it for a really long time. Many Attorneys do not want to become involved in a DOD issue, if it dos not yield a profit. Are there any records toward the Rock Island Arsenal, during 1943? Production, sales and repair of equipment?
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
kotera
Apr 3, 2017 3:21 PM
Hello Jack,
There are sites outside of NARA which may answer your question. The answer to the question is how the question is asked to find the answer. For example, "What are the origins of a WWII Anti-Gun?" There will be a comprehensive list of possible answers to your question.
I hope this will assist you in your search for information.
Sincerely,
Deb Powe
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
adavered
Apr 4, 2017 8:05 AM
Jack,
What weapon is it? Most surviving weapons are one of two types--either the 57mm anti tank gun M1, M1A1, M1A2, M1A3, M2, or M2A1 or the 3-inch anti tank gun M5, usually on the M6 carriage. Manufacturer information is usually located around the breech area, if there is not too much paint or corrosion covering the stamped markings.
As my colleagues have already stated, finding the exact provenance of your particular weapon is impossible. While records were maintained on the issuance of weapons down to the rifle, carbine, or pistol level, those records are temporary. For the U.S. Army, the towed anti-tank battalions (3-inch) were quickly disestablished after World War II, while the anti-tank companies (57mm) in the various infantry regiments were reorganized into new formations and the weapons discarded. Whatever anti-tank company or battalion was issued the weapon would have destroyed the custodial records upon being reorganized or disestablished.
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
It's a M5. Is there a way to track how is got from the army to VFW?
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
adavered
Apr 4, 2017 9:19 AM
1 person found this helpfulJack,
It may be easier to go through your Post's records. Perhaps the Post's leadership has maintained some significant records over the years where there would be some documents either from the Army or from the Department of Defense that clarifies how the post got the weapon. The M5 would have been declared surplus at some point and was demilitarized and donated through what, in my uniformed days during the 80s, was called a Defense Reutilization and Marketing Office (DRMO). I presume your Post has had the weapon since the 1950s or 1960s, so what that organization would have been called in earlier years I can't say.
However, it's highly unlikely that the Department of Defense would have retained records of individual donations to specific veterans' organizations and museums as permanent as those transactions numbered in the thousands during the postwar years. That's why it is more likely that if there are any records of the donation, those records would have been retained by the receiving organization/museum.
I wish we could be of more help in your search.
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Unfortunately there is no one still alive that has any records they did receive the gun in 1950 we are trying to verify that the gun was received so that we can transport it to a new site per local law. I have the serial number off the breach and pictures of the gun along with a brief description of it's history
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Rachael Salyer
Apr 5, 2017 12:32 PM
1 person found this helpfulDear Mr. Betz,
Since you're looking for verification that the gun was given as a gift or donation to your particular VFW Post, I agree with Alex Daverede that local records will likely be your best option. If you're not able to locate records from your Post, maybe you could search VFW newsletters or local newspapers from the time period you're interested in. Depending on the circumstances of the gun being gifted to your VFW Post, it's possible that there could be a news story or local special interest piece written about it.
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Thank you for your response I have a newspaper clipping from 1950 when it was placed at the post there's no other information available everyone is either passed or no one knows what's happened to the records since the post is closed because the World War 2 veterans are gone
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Rachael Salyer
Apr 5, 2017 3:41 PM
1 person found this helpfulDear Mr. Betz,
Perhaps other VFW Posts in your area have experienced similar situations. You might reach out to them (or to American Legion Posts or other similar veterans organizations) to see if they can offer further advice.
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
If the main reason you need the info is simply to get permission to move the gun, and you are clearly lacking a "deed of gift' for it, I'd run the situation by a local attorney. It might be abandoned property by now, or you might find you already own it outright. From what you've said, it sounds like a legal question more than an ordnance question (or perhaps I've misread your messages?)
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Thank you for your reply the local government is pushing for proof of ownership your suggestion gives me another Avenue to try thanks again
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Is the gun operational? Does it have a welded plug in the breach? Is it a county, state or federal law toward the weapon verification and issues involving transport?
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
The gun is welded and blocked and is definitely not operational the New York State Police we're the ones that told us that because it's a weapon we needed to have documentation that we owned the gun or we could have problems with Homeland Security
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
The Ordnance Museum has moved from Aberdeen Proving Ground to Ft Lee. The Army Field Artillery Museum is at Ft Sill. The Breech is welded and not operational. As a Life Member of the VFW, I would also suggest notifying the State and National leadership as to ensure this problem is not encountered by other chapters. Many have received historic military artillery pieces and firearms utilized in ceremonies. The National should request an inventory of posts that have non operation weapon donations, and operational ceremonial pieces. They can then work with the military toward proper registration. As I recall, there were problems with posts missing many of the M1 Garand rifles that were donated. Field Artillery pieces that have no original paperwork, should be able to have their serial numbers recorded, and verified as manufactured at the Rock Island Arsenal. Memorandums from the DOD should be then be requested as to ensure that the pieces are registered and inoperable. You may not be aware, but there are specific guidelines as to ensure the weapons are not able to function. Simply welding a plug in the breech, may not be sufficient, because a surface tack weld can easily be removed and repaired. I am wondering why this project has not been initiated? Perhaps time, manpower and cost? Many of the VSO's have donated and captured pieces at various chapters. Please notify the National leadership, or Quartermaster, because this issue may have come up in the past. Or they may have approached the DOD on this issue. I would bet that RIA, has a historical list of serial numbers somewhere up in the attic, or in an electronic data base.
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Thank you for the information
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
1 person found this helpfulThis is indeed a tough question. I would write down all of the information that you DO have such as Serial #, any dates that might be on the weapon, manufacturer name etc.. From that point we MIGHT be able to narrow down some additional information about the item.
In the meantime, here is a document that breaks down the years and months that the M5's were produced (1943-1945), as well as the total number produced (2,580)
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Thanks I'm going to try to do a little more digging for more information
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
3 people found this helpfulYou may also want to get in contact with these folks:
"Identification of Army historical property; location and disposition of Army historical property, to include ordnance, accouterments, flags, military materiel, and associated artifacts."
U.S. Army Center of Military History
ATTN: AAMH-MDC
9955 Tracy Loop, BLDG 765
Fort Belvoir, VA 22060
Contact CMH:
http://www.history.army.mil/inquire.html
OR
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
The M5 antitank gun was made by Rock Island Arsenal in Illinois. They still make the various artillery guns, and even the Atomic Cannon is listed in their production listings. Just Wiki Rock Island Arsenal. They may have the original patent information, and a list of serial numbers for the 2,500 guns. The CMP, Civilian Marksmenship Program also has a data base of M1 Garand rifles. There is also a Presidential Salute Gun Platoon, of the Old Guard, with 10 M5's at Ft Myer. They may transport the weapons in the DC area, and may be familiar with transport requirements and regulations. They may also have procedure and maintenance manuals, and some old shells.
Rock Island Arsenal Wikipedia Link
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Also, unfortunately if the post cannot prove that the gun was given donated to them, then the Army may want it back. Another perspective, is to request a Newer, deactivated gun from one of the recent wars in Iraq or Afghanistan. If the DOD does have some deactivated pieces, then they may be able to provide a document similar to a cars "salvage title" toward the M5. There are always waivers, and memorandums that can be issued as to clarify this weapons current ownership and historic value. It's just a matter of getting someone to take action, and getting motivated. You may also have to have a legislative body draft a letter to the DOD if Rock Island Arsenal does not have any data on the serial number. There are also captured weapons from enemy forces, which can pose a bigger problem.
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Thank you
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Thank you I will pursue that Avenue
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
I tried your links, but yahoo will not let me in?
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
It seems that the Hub may filter the links. Please Google the VFW Policy on Static displays, and it will show a link describing the address to the VFW National Headquarters and a log in portal toward the TACOM static military display criteria. Web Searching toward the VSO ( Veteran Service Organization) static display of tanks, artillery and mortars does provide the proper channels toward the official policies and authorizations. History Hub does not facilitate quick links.
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
I'LL GIVE IT A TRY!
JACK BETZ
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Call the VFW National at 816-756-3390 or the Washington Office at 202-543-2239, before the Army comes and tows that M5 over to the Old Guard or back to the TACOM inventory.
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Dear Sir,
After researching this, it appears that the M5 Gun is actually still considered the property of the US Army. There are guidelines set forth by the National toward obtaining ceremonial rifles, ammo and equipment. The forms must be filled out by the post commander or quartermaster. Please see the link below, which reminds posts, that the property is considered that of the US Army. Please contact the National toward this issue, and proper ownership and decommissioning of your M5.
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Hope the link works, but it was the VFW Training Series toward Ceremonial Rifles and Equipment.
The VFW National Headquarters at 406 W. 34t St. Kansas City, MO 64111 has the policy, procedures and forms for post Static displays, tanks, artillery and motors on loan from the US Army.
The Rock Island Arsenal Joint Munitions Command, Illinois and US Army TACOM Life Cycle Management Command,
Warren Michigan are involved in the programs authorization process. There are yearly inventory processes that should suffice toward the recent New York Firearms Act. The gun cannot be moved or transferred to another post or entity without proper authorization through TACOM.
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
I have learned something today concerning this issue. The VFW National Headquarters Adjutant General should be notified. The Post should be able to register this item through he permission of TACOM in Warren MI , and follow the proper procedures toward yearly photography and inspection of the static display. Ceremonial rifles are also inspected every 3 years. The equipment has been considered on loan for the past 67 years, and the Army has forgotten to identify it. The Army does not abandon anything, it only becomes forgotten by the next generation. This was an important lesson in history, and the role of our nations physical evidence. Please report back, and let me know what the National Headquarters and TACOM states. If they cannot resolve the issue, then it may need the intervention of congressional or senate representatives.
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Thx, I'll follow up on it ASAP
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Christian Belena
May 2, 2017 1:01 PM
I compatriot of mine in my American Legion Post who is a military historian told me that you may also want to check with the Department of Defense.
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
I am working with TACOM on a solution
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
TACOM should be able to supply appropriate documentation, but the static display will need yearly verification and inspection. Requests for equipment, guns and artillery from the recent wars could take years, due to concerns with radiological contamination and decontamination requirements. Hopefully they can resolve the issue successfully.
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
I'd like to thank everyone for their input
We have the needed info to display the Gun thru TACOM
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Great, this would be a good article for the VFW Magazine. I noticed that the magazine had an article about the USS Stark, which was struck by 2 Iraq missiles in 1987. The author was on board, and stated that the "rules of engagement were not declassified". I remember seeing the references to the Stark investigation, while reviewing a FOIA for the Desert Storm SF135 receipt and transmittal inventory forms. NARA has 7" of documents related to the USS Stark incident in 1987. It is located on the FOIA Online website, under NN3-518-93-2. If there are any former Stark crew members in your post or region, the Stark record inventory is on page 162, which also has associated pages of Operation Earnest Will, and the Vincennes incident. There were also former crew members who were attempting to retroactively obtain the Navy Combat Action Ribbon, which was denied. Which is somewhat similar to the USS Pueblo denial of the Prisoner of War Medal, but Not similar to the award of the Navy CAR to the USS Liberty. Perhaps the records on pages 161, 162, and 163 explain the rules of engagement and political philosophy at the time. Take care....
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
How would I go about that?
JACK BETZ
716-684-5526 HOME
716-481-3569 CELL
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Re: I'M trying to trace the lineage of a WW II anti-tank Gun at our VFW POST. Where do I start?
Just communicate with the Editorial Office, VFW Magazine, 406 W. 4th St. Suite 523, Kansas City MO, 64111,
816-756-3390, Fax 816-968-1169, www.vfw.org; magazine@vfw.org. Call them up, and tell them the story about the M5 Gun in New York, and how the problem was solved as to keep the historic static display, and how TACOM assisted your post.
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