Burial record of my uncle

I want to find  details of person buried in Veterans Cemetery in Long Island. His name is Patrick Joseph Cullen, born 14/03/1906  died Jan5 , 1967  

Parents
  • You would know more than I, but I would think Patrick Joseph Cullen is a relatively common name.  Can't really be sure, but the one interred in LI National that I think may be him shows up in a number of records, for instance:

    1940 Draft Card - the WWII draft began on 1 Oct 1940.  He was living in Detroit where he registered as required on 16 Oct.  He was 34 at the time (the draft law required all men 21- not yet 36 to register), and had a wife, Ann Cullen.

    1940 Census - living in Detroit, wife Ann and two children, Patrick Jr (4) and Margarite (2)

    1950 Census - Still in MI but now Dearborn, four children, Patrick Jr (14), Margarite (12), Carol Ann (8), Mary (2).  However, states under "Veteran", NO

    I believe Ann, his wife died in 1960.  Perhaps His daughter, Carol Ann is the Ann De West in the cemetery record?  She would have been 27 and maybe she went by "Ann", and De West was her married name?  But then she definitely would have been an NOK, hmmm??

    Didn't see anything so far on parents or siblings.  Also, I'm thinking he ENLISTED in 1942 as they were not drafting married men at the time, especially 36-year-olds with two kids!  1944, yes!

    OH, just noticed, his 1934 marriage cert indicates Father's name - Hugh Cullen, Mothers maiden name Ellen Burns!  Does that help?

    Perhaps others can add more, or comment.

  • The issue is, why did he enlist in Pennsylvania in 1942 if he was living in Detroit in 1940? 

    Why does it say "No" for Veteran?

    Where does it list place of birth? We know the one we are looking for should say "Ireland."

    If the Carol Ann listed as a daughter is the Ann De West, why would she list "none" for relationship if she was his daughter?

    I think this individual is the wrong person. The information appears to be a match but doesn't withstand close scrutiny.

  • Donald, I don’t know. They withheld a lot of information. Did not say if he was Irish, no address. Said he was married but no name of wife. NOK not related but not named. Gave details of when he joined army and left. Also his funeral casket!!  Very disappointing reply. Will appeal their withholding of information. 

  • Well, now compare what you've gotten from other sources to what they gave you. Next of kin not related--that's what Trajan said, as well, based on his source. Was the source not there, or was it redacted (removed)? Because he gave you a name--does the other information he provided line up with what you've got on the new record?

    If you're having trouble understanding the forms, you could always post it as an attachment and we could take a look at it and see what we could figure out, even absent the redacted information. Living in the states, we might understand things that might not be obvious to you.

  • Donald, the new record just gave me his name, date of birth and death. It said he was married. Wife not named. NOK not named. It did say not related. I understand the information perfectly, They did not tell me if he was Irish or give any address. Privacy issue. The person I  thought was Patrick was single when he enlisted in 1942. Those dates were the same. Perhaps he was divorced. I don’t know. I do not understand why they would not give me information about him. They gave me Funeral details. I rang the Funeral company, now run by different family person and they do not have records for that long ago.  Record did have same serial number on his form. Feeling very tired. 

    1. Donald, I should have said service number is same. 33293459. Veteran ID 3760092. Several pages just repeated this info and details of casket 
  • Hope I sent complete photo of some of the texts. Most pages were blank as information not given. Not sure if Command Unit Conv Hosp is where he died. Also something dated 09Jan1967??  Thanks   Liz

  • So, do the dates of enlistment and discharge line up with the Patrick Cullen we've been looking at, the one we KNOW was born in the Irish Free State? Because this could just further collaborate that the man buried there is your uncle, even if they did redact a lot. It's the whole trail of breadcrumbs I've been talking about. Three or four pieces of data match the PA application, and the final pay worksheet, and the enlistment record, and the enlistment record, and the draft card (maybe even more than one), and you've got your evidence. Or if enough of the available data matches what Trajan told you to confirm what he said, it could also confirm it.

    Did they say his rank was a sergeant?

    Did he enlist on 8 September 1942?

    Was he discharged on 1 March 1946?

    Was his birthdate 14 March 1906?

    These are the data points you want to compare to the other data points in your file, because they can be compared with known datapoints form other documents. And no other men named Cullens in the military service of the United States was born on 14 March 1906, so if you know your uncle was born then, you don't necessarily have to have his birthplace--everything else potentially locks it in.

  • My only comment is the record keeping was awful back then.  It didn't improve when they (the VA) went digital with these same lousy records.

  • I think the 9 Jan 1967 date was someone authorizing interment in the cemetery. They had to check to make sure he fit the qualifications.

Reply Children
  • T.  So much withheld. I understand the privacy issue if he was married. I really just wanted to know if that Patrick was Irish. And where he lived when he died. They sent 3 pages explaining why they would not give information. They accepted I was not going to publish or misuse his.details. So why withhold them. Feeling defeated. Liz

  • I agree. You'll also see that it refers to "Army Branch NPRC" "NPRC" was the National Personnel Records Center, the infamous building that had the fire in 1973. They built a new building which is now the National Archives at Saint Louis. It's actually a bit more complicated than that--some records may be in service custody in the same building before being turned over to the Archives.

  • Liz:

    They don't have a choice. The Federal Privacy Act requires them to withhold certain information--it plays a tug of war with the Freedom of Information Act. but from what you've posted, I don't see where they withheld his address. There's a block for address on the computer screen capture, but it only provides for the county he was living for--because that's all they were concerned with, to determine if he should be buried in Long Island or some other National Cemetery without a waiver. And that block wasn't redacted, just blank--because it doesn't have an exemption code in it. Which likely means they didn't need the information (probably because all of New York City falls within the cemetery's catchment area).

    If you have other pages with redacted information--or blank spots that don't have codes annotated in them, like (b)(6), post them and we'll see if we can make sense of them. But I think you're getting overly discouraged about something that they never recorded in the first place.

  • Liz:

    From what you've posted, I see very little information withheld and nothing withheld that would give you any new information about your uncle. It appears that some information was not available or not collected.

    The Patrick buried in L.I. National WAS Irish. We proved that with his military and immigration records that match your uncle's birthplace.

    Have you applied for a NYC Death Certificate yet? That MAY list his address at time of death, but if he was hospitalized for a long period, maybe not. It will at least narrow your search so you can check newspapers and neighborhood directories.

    No need to feel defeated! You have made great progress in the past few weeks. Your original question of "Is this my uncle?" has been answered with a big YES. I don't think anything else you find will change that, only add more perspective to your findings.

    Specifically, what would make you feel like you succeeded?

  • I don't know if this is YOUR Patrick. Elmont and Valley Stream are both on Long Island, NY near where he ended up living in 1950. (Credit The Nassau Daily Review as found in NYS Historic Newspapers)  I have also found references to "Brookside" about a baseball team and fire company in the Nassau/Queens county areas in the 1930's. There may have been a small area that went by that name, but I couldn't find anything relating to that name and horses.

    I'm wondering if his planned career as a jockey worked out. At 5' 6", 148 pounds he was on the large side.

  • Liz (and T, and Trajan):

    Another document I received from St. Louis today.

    The same Patrick J. Cullen, identified by Serial number (33293459). In December 1943, he's stationed at Camp Lee (now Fort Gregg-Adams), Virginia, assigned to the Station Complement (nowadays we call it the Garrison Staff). His was in the Quartermaster Corps--if you recall his final pay calculation, it had "QMC" printed on it, but that was crossed out and "MD" was handwritten in, likely indicating that he had been reclassified.

    On 17 December 1943, he was admitted to the Station Hospital at Camp Lee for some sort or nose and throat infection, and was discharged 10 days later.

    BUT THAT'S NOT THE IMPORTANT PART!

    Look at Block 10: NATIVITY

    It says "Ireland."

    Now we have a document prepared while he was on active duty, probably by a clerk who actually asked him the question, and was told "I was born in Ireland"

    And in block 8, it says he was 37. 1943-1906=37.

    So now you have the missing piece. You have the draft registration card that says "Ireland." and lists Dr. Dunne. You have the enlistment record that says "Ireland." You have this record, prepared while he was on active duty that says "Ireland," and you have the PA Claim form that says "Ireland," and lists Dr. Dunne. All of them have the same serial number except the draft registration card, and it and the claim form list Dr. Dunne, and address upon induction also match. This is about as solid as you can get. There are a lot of people who would kill for a document trail this solid, given the fire in St. Louis.

    And the birth date, date of induction and date of separation, as well as the serial number, all match the Patrick J. Cullen buried in the grave in the Long Island National Cemetery.

    It's him!

    CullenPatrickJ-QMC-33293459.pdf

  • For whatever it’s worth, Belmont Racetrack is in Elmont.  Many of the tracks workers live in the area.

  • Hope not him.  Larceny!!  His family always said he was a groom/ stableman, not a jockey. 

  •  says he was exonerated, because they couldn't find the person who accused him. So it very well could have been some sort of hustle.